1/32 slot racing at a nearby commercial track

[bobbyraz49]

^^^ We run an IROC type race the same way and it is a blast.

[proxieken]

The same thing happens in 1-1 scale racing. One car dominates and enthusiasm wanes. This might explain the balance of performance mess that goes on.

I sometimes follow Australian Touring Car Masters and Trans Am series racing. A lot of really cool cars running down under. I heard the announcer mention that one driver (John Bowe?) had won so often his car would soon be idling. Apparently winning an event caused the driver to have his rev limiter turned back by 100 RPM for future events.

This is the one thing that makes Carrera digital appeal to me.

Digital allows cars to be tweaked via the computer. After each race the winner had to lose a point of brakes, fuel or power. We ran this once on a Saturday and by the 4th race the cars were so even it was insane. The racing was super close and really came down to the slightest mistake costing a race.

You can also set the lap counter to only count laps of a minimum time. So you can have brackets and if a car breaks out and turns a lap faster than the bracket the computer will simply not count that lap.

Having the same car win constantly will create a speed arms race. Some people love that aspect of things, but not me. I was mostly poor while young and there are too many facets of life that simply come down to who ever can spend the most comes out on top. I learned to be happy with my junker cars. :lol:

So there are options for people like me who just want to have fun and keep everyone in the game.

I do not know how this can translate to analog, but there should be some way to vary the power by small increments until the proper balance is achieved or set the lap counter to keep one car from using warp drive while the others are stuck on impulse engines.

I plan to visit my local commercial track this weekend that just opened up. Curious to see what they are doing there.

[padirtfan]

[mattb]

I feel sad for the guys that don't have fun racing unless they can win. Our group purposely gears down any cars that get too fast so we are all kind of competitive. Still the better driver usually beats me, Every now and then I outlast the other guys, they wreck and I win by just being close. If one guy is not a great driver, we may even let his car run a little faster so he can sneak in a win every now and then.

I do understand that being the best and looking for the edge is what makes some guys happy. Just not what most of our guys care about.

[bill from nh]

Matt, i agree that commercial racing & club racing with a group of friends are as different as night & day. :text-yeahthat:

[mattb]

Bill we race at the commercial track on a Blue King. It's a great track and a few of the regulars see the fun we have and then want to build cars like us and have fun like we do. We have the same fun when we race at home!

[Modlerbob]

I have four cars that are identical in every way except their color the we occasionally race on my home track. They are the $22.00 GT Lightning cars and run nearly identical lap times by the same driver. We run our IROC races the same way, the cars stay in the same lane while the drivers change lanes. The guys that come to DeBary Glen to race like this format very much.

BTW, the Porsche that I came in third with at Holly Hill last night was brand new right out of the box that I got in the mail 4 hours earlier ( the Falken Tire livery) with only a lube job and a change to PG tires. I also turned the fastest lap of the evening in the first heat with it.

[bobbyraz49]

^^^Bob...I have tried MANY motor break-ins with no true break-in winner. It's nice to see a car that just came out the box that competitive.

[SuperSlab]

I do not suppose I should be surprised but still: it is striking how often the "winning vs. losing" topic comes up in several different guises and flavours on most of the slot car forums. Seems like it very often get distilled into one or more of the following:

1. Every group has a few competitive and skilled tuners and drivers. These guys pretty much invariably end at the top and dominate races.
2. New and less skilled drivers cannot break into the podium ranks and get discouraged.
3. To try and level the playing field, groups look to new and different rules and more stringent enforcement. The same people STILL win.
4. Whether real or not, because of the differences, dark mumblings of cheating start up, the non winners get more disillusioned and some leave.

I must say, looking at it purely on this level, I find it very, very difficult to see a solution that will keep everybody happy. Some things stand out:

* The "cheating" thing is a biggy. And while I am not saying that cheating does not happen, the concept of some people working very hard at preparing their cars and working very hard at improving their driving has been mentioned. I think a lot of the "tilt in the playing field" is due to this, rather than cheating. The reality is that some people are just better at preparing and driving cars.
* Introducing more stringent rules is extremely unlikely to change this. If nothing else other than the rules change, the good tuners that spend a lot of effort preparing their cars LEGALLY AND PRECISELY will still have the better cars. And have a better chance of winning because of this. The good drivers will still have that edge, and hence have a better chance of winning. The cheaters will likely still cheat.
* IROC racing only addresses the car issue, not the driving ability issue. I think there are also two different approaches to IROC racing:
- "Club cars" that are similarly prepared and are similar in speed. Cars stay in the lanes, drivers rotate through. I prefer this approach.
- "Sharing" people's own cars by having people prepare and bring their own cars. The way I understand what happens next is that people then just swap cars on some agreed basis. I must admit I am not too keen on this approach. Firstly: This is not a true IROC concept as people will still be driving better or worse cars for the full lane rotations depending on what they draw. Secondly, as somebody who tends to be meticulous in car preparation and driving, while I am not completely averse to occasionally lending someone a car when they have nothing suitable of have a breakdown, I must say I cringe a bit to have this happen all the time. In spite of some of them having a LOT of laps, most of my cars still have their mirrors and look "almost new". This is in large part due to my driving approach plus taking care of my cars generally. I would hate to have a wholesale "demirrorification" happen due to lending cars all the time! Also: should there not be SOME incentive for people to invest a bit of time in car preparation? Note that I have prepared cars for a few people in our group, meticulously describing what problems/issues I found when inspecting the car and then again meticulously describing what I did to improve it. This complete with "before and after" lap times. I have also happily shared detailed lists of the preparation steps I normally take. If people do not want to do anything with that, well....



I am very blessed in enjoying this hobby with an incredible group of guys where this winning and losing thing with consequent discouragement is really not a substantive issue. And in thinking about it, I strongly believe there are two basic reasons for this:

Absence of "win at all cost":

First and foremost: this is just an incredibly laid back group that get enjoyment out of different aspects of the hobby. Chassis scratch building, body scratch building, different degrees of car prep: its all there. Partly because of this but also because of the nature of the "club", while racing can be quite competitive, winning or losing is really a non-issue for virtually everybody. I believe this is probably 90% of the reason for the level of harmony, enjoyment and FUN that we have.

This atmosphere I believe is largely just a "happy coincidence". And yes: there are some pointers as to why this is where we are at. Largely this is due to the personality and influence of our local slot car guru, Luf (AKA Oldslotracer on the forum). He has been the “spiritual leader” of slot car racing around here pretty much forever. And his “enjoyment and fun before rules and winning” has imbued the group with its character. Over the years this has meant that like-minded people have been attracted and tend to stay.

So our regular race days (Fridays and Mondays/Tuesdays) tends to be an equal mix of racing and socialising.

The second aspect is:

Race format

We use bracket racing to level the playing field. And what, may you ask, is our bracket racing format? Short description: our incarnation of bracket racing works as follows:

1. Driver order is pretty much random. With bracket racing skill level (tuning and/or driving) really is not supposed to matter.
2. Start with 3 guys in the 3 lanes. Have a couple minute session where guys drive the cars in that lane and each one tries to establish what a reasonable lap time is for them with that car in that lane.
3. Every driver nominates a bracket time in seconds to one decimal place (e.g. 7.6 seconds).
4. The track is marked in sections: every section equates to 1/10th of a second difference over a 5 lap race.
5. Slowest person starts from the start line. Every other person starts the number of sections back based on the number of tenths that they are faster than the slowest person.
6. We then have a 5 lap "crash & burn" race. First out gets 1 point, second gets 2, winner gets 3. If a person comes out and does not impede the remaining guys, the race goes on. If not, the remaining two guys restart with 5 laps.
7. Anybody that does a lap faster than his bracket time gets a big fat ZERO. No second chances, no do over: if you are 1/1000th of a second fast you are out of that 5 lap race sans points.
8. In theory, if every person completes every lap at their bracket time, everybody should cross the line together at the end of the 5 laps. Does not always work that way but generally we have pretty tight, competitive racing in spite of wildly varying abilities.
9. We normally do 4 x 5 lap races per lane. At the end of the 4 heats we rotate and start from point 2 above again.

From the above it might be apparent to the mathematically inclined that the gaps are an approximation as the distance per 10th of a second would vary with the actual lap times. So Roger (one of our members) has recently written a lap timing system from scratch that does the math based on the actual lap times of all cars.

The track is now split into 20 sections (the program can actually accommodate any number of sections) and races can be any number of laps you choose. The program then calculates how long the slowest car will take to complete the number of laps and then determines how many sections back the other cars have to start based on their selected lap times. He has even gone so far as to have a toggle switch at each driver station that allows each driver to set his own break-out time! The computer monitor then shows which car starts on the Pole (zero handicap) plus the number of sections back the each of the others have to start at: no mental arithmetic, no uncertainty: beautiful!

During the race the system compares every lap time of every car against its breakout time and, if you go too fast, the system cuts power to you lane (complete with screeching brakes round effects!). Again this removes the need for a person to check the lap times and tell someone that he has “broken out”.

In principle this means that wildly differing car speeds and driver abilities can be accommodated with everybody having a chance of winning. To test the extremes of this system, Brian (Duke777 on the forum) and I tried it with one of my fastest cars and one of his slowest cars some time ago. IIRC the lap time differential resulted in something like a two lap handicap. In the 4 heats we ran we ended up very, very close together at the end of the race each and every time!

This means that our relaxed approach to rules and our differing tastes in types and speeds of cars can happily co-exist in one race. Our only classification in racing is now by class of car (e.g. CanAM, front engine, Targa Florio etc). So in the Open class: you want to run your screamingly fast, well tuned and set up NSR Mosler? Go ahead: knock yourself out. Somebody else want to run a slow, scratchbuilt VW Beetle? No problem!

Works extremely well for us.

[BARC 1]

Do not let the inherent need to win take control of you. If you do then your happiness in this hobby will be diminished. When too much emphasis is placed on winning, your days in this hobby are numbered.

That has been my observation after 50 years in the hobby.

[strangebrew]

To put it simply....barring a crash, the best drivers will invariably win.
I've been down this road many times in 1:1 racing. Change the rules & a couple of weeks later the same guys
are near the top again. It comes down to preparation & driving skill.
I'd hate to see clubs take the innovation & building skills away from the hobby.
I never build two cars the same, because while building one, I get better (another) idea for the next.
Check the results of the last Showdown. Times are faster across the board from last year,
AND THE RULES REMAINED THE SAME!
I've sent cars I've built to other people in the past.....and they've beaten me with them.........
This year's Showdown is an example of that.
so to repeat.............Barring a crash, the best drivers will invariably win.

[slothead]

This is a very interesting thread because even though I'm a solo racer now I've raced at commercial tracks and in clubs where this issue came up. It's good seeing the many ways guys think about it and the range of ideas used to address it. The most important thing to me is how to keep the less successful guys interested because a race with just a few podium finishers would be no fun. When I go to my favorite Friday night dirt track even though only 4 or 5 cars have a real chance of winning the 30 lap feature, I love seeing 24 cars lined up and heading to the green flag. In dirt track racing with inverted starts that means the top contenders have to come from the back to win so it's sort of like the system Superslab detailed.

I also like tracks or clubs that hold non-qualifies or non-winners races and award equal points or prizes (ribbon, small trophy, or gift certificates) as for the feature races. Everyone appreciates when their best effort is recognized, even if it not the BEST effort on a given night.

As a solo racer conducting simulated races based on recorded lap times I have the same issues, how to create close races and not have the outcome be a forgone conclusion. So I'm also interested in how other solo racers keep it interesting.

Slothead

[Modlerbob]

Had a bad day at the races this week. I use a wireless Scorpius digital controller with the wireless analog module. Being in a wheelchair this controller is a godsend. Well, one of the other drivers was helping by moving the module to the next lane and somehow hooked it up incorrectly. As soon as the power came on at the start of the next heat my car took off like a rocket and slammed into the wall. Although there was no damage to my car the brake on the controller was fried. The other driver immediately offered to pay for a replacement module even after I told him how much they cost ($79 + shipping). I had my backup controller with me but from that point on I had to sit at the driver's stations and due to the shape of the track my view of portions of the lanes was restricted. I came in 7th out of 8.

Professor motor was where I initially got the controller and module but due to lack of sales they are no longer stocking the Scorpius line and I had to order from Australia where it is made, so I will be out of the competition for a couple of weeks. Next time I race I will remind whoever is helping me change lanes "red to red, white to white and black to black".

[Modlerbob]

Things went better this week. I used an old PM controller with no dials or switches on it and managed a third place in the TransAm race and a fourth in the GT-3 race. My car in the TransAm race was a 1970 Camaro, the orange #13 car driven by Warren Agor. It has a green endbell motor installed which put it on par with the new inline Javelins. My car in the GT-3 class is the new Porsche 911 GT3 with the Falken Tire livery. It finished about 20 ft. behind the third place car. Next week I hope to have the replacement module in hand for my scorpius controller.

[bobbyraz49]

Glad you found a place to race. We have our controllers attached to a 3 prong plug. That way it can't be inserted wrong.