If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby chappy » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:28 am

I have been rereading the posts , and it seems that the Biggest thing is not motor orientation , but Come on Jules we want a Pioneer Javelin lol. A testament to the quality of the Pioneer product line to be sure.
Now having said that , i am always one who complains when manufacturers change things technical in a series. So in honesty lets keep it a sidewinder, they run perfectly fine and compete well with anything in TA class be it Scalex or SCX.
So Lets get the Concours win in first and then see who can Brag for the Flag.
Bob
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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby JULES » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:06 am

Men,

Naturally I have watched with some interest how the inline set-up from Scalextric would be received. By and large the response and enthusiasm for the Javelin model is positive – which is great news for the hobby.

When I found out that Scaley were pushing ahead quickly with the Javelin and the word was out that it would be inline, I figured it would be prudent to hang back a little and see what the real deal was until I committed to tooling one way or another.

My opinion is that the choice by Scalextric to go inline has nothing to do with performance advantages. It is quite clear by looking at (and inside) the model what the real ‘advantages’ are and why you can expect a wholesale changeover to this motor format for all future releases.

Have Scalextric made an error in installing a more powerful motor and potentially changing the playing field? That is for you to decide. Will it really make much difference to the Average Joe home racer? No, not at all. You guys are rare and unusual inasmuch as you really care (for good reason) if such and such a TA model has an advantage over the rest of the field. You go out of your way to benchmark, tune, fettle, perfect and tweak the model to gain a few tenths here and there. The other 99 out of 100 buyers will plonk the model on a plastic track with magnets still installed and the model will run just fine against all the others.

Here is a screen grab out of the latest CAD to show you what has been decided for the Pioneer AMC Javelin…

Image

You’ll notice immediately that it is sidewinder. There are several reasons for the decision:-

1/ It’s how we currently make chassis and there is no overwhelming reason to change.

2/ An inline motor compromises the interior detail. I know my customers and the vast majority buy for looks as well as performance. A cheap little tray inside and half a driver sitting on a peg would completely ruin how I want the models to be perceived. Quality, looks and good performance are factors I need to stick to.

3/ Even if, after long term testing, it is found that the Scaley Javelin will outperform the Pioneer version (both models prepped and tuned by a routed wooden track tuning maestro) then that is the way that it will be. In out of box stock format there will only be a few tenths in it either way and that will be down to the luck of the motor (10% variable up and down in top speed) and what the tires are like. The variable in performance will be evident in either brand. It’s just the way it is. One guy will have a quick Scaley and the other guy will have a rapid Pioneer.

Anyhow, the chatter about speed and performance is getting right to the edge of the laws of physics. At some point in the future, someone will make the fastest lap possible around a slot car track. It will be a lap time that will never be beaten because a projectile with mass travelling in forward motion that encounters a change in direction does have a finite maximum speed, no matter what tires/wheels you have nailed on, what gear ratio you have and no matter what direction the motor is facing.

From my personal point of view, these toys we have fun with go more than fast enough for my tastes. The scale speed is off the scale. For me, it’s about how they drive.

Jules
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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby Ky.Slot Racer » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:24 am

Code: Select all
From my personal point of view, these toys we have fun with go more than fast enough for my tastes. The scale speed is off the scale. For me, it’s about how they drive.

here here :dance:
Preach brother !!!
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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby Mayberryman » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:38 pm

JULES wrote:Men,

Naturally I have watched with some interest how the inline set-up from Scalextric would be received. By and large the response and enthusiasm for the Javelin model is positive – which is great news for the hobby.

When I found out that Scaley were pushing ahead quickly with the Javelin and the word was out that it would be inline, I figured it would be prudent to hang back a little and see what the real deal was until I committed to tooling one way or another.

My opinion is that the choice by Scalextric to go inline has nothing to do with performance advantages. It is quite clear by looking at (and inside) the model what the real ‘advantages’ are and why you can expect a wholesale changeover to this motor format for all future releases.

Have Scalextric made an error in installing a more powerful motor and potentially changing the playing field? That is for you to decide. Will it really make much difference to the Average Joe home racer? No, not at all. You guys are rare and unusual inasmuch as you really care (for good reason) if such and such a TA model has an advantage over the rest of the field. You go out of your way to benchmark, tune, fettle, perfect and tweak the model to gain a few tenths here and there. The other 99 out of 100 buyers will plonk the model on a plastic track with magnets still installed and the model will run just fine against all the others.

Here is a screen grab out of the latest CAD to show you what has been decided for the Pioneer AMC Javelin…

Image

You’ll notice immediately that it is sidewinder. There are several reasons for the decision:-

1/ It’s how we currently make chassis and there is no overwhelming reason to change.

2/ An inline motor compromises the interior detail. I know my customers and the vast majority buy for looks as well as performance. A cheap little tray inside and half a driver sitting on a peg would completely ruin how I want the models to be perceived. Quality, looks and good performance are factors I need to stick to.

3/ Even if, after long term testing, it is found that the Scaley Javelin will outperform the Pioneer version (both models prepped and tuned by a routed wooden track tuning maestro) then that is the way that it will be. In out of box stock format there will only be a few tenths in it either way and that will be down to the luck of the motor (10% variable up and down in top speed) and what the tires are like. The variable in performance will be evident in either brand. It’s just the way it is. One guy will have a quick Scaley and the other guy will have a rapid Pioneer.

Anyhow, the chatter about speed and performance is getting right to the edge of the laws of physics. At some point in the future, someone will make the fastest lap possible around a slot car track. It will be a lap time that will never be beaten because a projectile with mass travelling in forward motion that encounters a change in direction does have a finite maximum speed, no matter what tires/wheels you have nailed on, what gear ratio you have and no matter what direction the motor is facing.

From my personal point of view, these toys we have fun with go more than fast enough for my tastes. The scale speed is off the scale. For me, it’s about how they drive.

Jules


Jules, thank you for your clear and in depth answer to many of our questions. I guess that I am one of the more serious racers because I only race at structured races with classes and rules for the classes and yes I do dislike the inline change because of real or perhaps perceived advantages. I look at your rendition of your Javelin and hold out a great deal of hope for it, the only change I would make would be to make it a first generation Javelin since the 71 is already produced. No matter, again, thank you for your answer. At my club the two cars that seem to be the most competitive as far as most racers is your Notch Mustang and the Scaley 70 Camaro. As always keep up the good fight and support for this wonderful hobby.
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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby midagekid1 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:53 pm

Hi:

I would like to see Pioneer keep the sidewinder configuration. It is true and tested technology that seems to work well for them so far... why change something that is not 'broke".
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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby midagekid1 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:59 pm

Sidewinder all the way. It is a motor configuration that has been tested to run better in my opinion than any other... I try to convert most of my cars to this method...
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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby steeveew » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:59 pm

arroldn wrote:I will get one regardless of motor orientation. Bob is correct SCX Cudas are inline. However Steve was able to win the 2016 TransAm proxy with this configuration. So they run just fine compared to sidewinders. Quick observations with my new Scaley Javelin with the magnet removed shows similar times to the Scaley Camaro and Challenger in stock trim.

Arrold,Dale won last years Trans Am proxy with a Scalextric Camaro.


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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby slothead » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:57 pm

I hope Pioneer does release a Javelin and no matter what the motor configuration or livery is I'll be getting one. Sidewinder, as Jules says, makes the most sense because it's what they've done and done well.

Right now I have about 16 each of Trans Am Mustangs and Camaros in my series, along with 4 Cougars, 3 Javelins (2 RMS resin bodied cars on Scaley chassis), a SCX 'Cuda, 2 Challengers, and a (RMS) Firebird. All the RTR ones look great and have been very competitive with each other so more Cougars, Javelins, and others would be most welcome.

Jules - if you build it I'll buy it.

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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby Old Gray Wolf » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:17 pm

What i would like to see from someone is the 1970 model Javelin. This car has just as much right as the 71/72's because it went head to head with all the factorys. Beside I think the hood looks cool. and Pioneer could do it in a sidewinder. Now someone do a Grey Ghost, that one is the one that is missing
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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby arroldn » Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:42 pm

Steve,
I stand corrected. You finished with your Cuda in Second. Must have had the spreadsheet on the wrong page. Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion.

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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby Z-carfan » Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:01 pm

Ky.Slot Racer wrote:
Code: Select all
From my personal point of view, these toys we have fun with go more than fast enough for my tastes. The scale speed is off the scale. For me, it’s about how they drive.

here here :dance:
Preach brother !!!


I repeat Ky.Slot Racer's comment... Preach brother!!!!
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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby Modlerbob » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:59 pm

If I were Jules I would consider going with the pre 1971 Javelin.
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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby Dundee Denny » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:10 pm

Jules, I have my VISA ready to go the second you have that Javelin ready to ship!!!

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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby cobralvr » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:17 am

i agree with the few that mentioned the 1970 bodied javelin. 1970 was considered trans-ams greatest year.
1970 was the last year of the factory teams and the popular drivers.
Most of the 1970, front of the pack, field have been released in slot car replicas, the javelin and Titus firebird are missing.

It was easy for the Penski factory team to win in 1971 because they raced against private teams and drivers.
The only competion they had was a bud moore mustang driven by George Follmer. Between the two of them they won all the races that year.
Scalextric and Jules can do many different paints to one body mold with the 71 version and i understand the year they picked.
The javelin changed from 70 to 71, longer wheelbase,no hood scoop, fender bumps over the front tires, it would be nice to have an historically correct 1970 version released, of course none of this matters if were just playing with toy cars.
Last edited by cobralvr on Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Pioneer releases a Javelin which motor configuration?

Postby arroldn » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:52 am

Help me understand the desire for the 70 model Javelin? I think the 71 and later models look better. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Arrold
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