Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby TuscoTodd » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:36 pm

R/TRandy wrote:Sorry TuscoTodd no arbitrary limiting was done to your car.
Randy


Randy -
Thank you for letting me know that, but what I was trying to get at was that there was limiting applied, (based on the discretion of the individual track host) to different levels for different individual entries. While the info you shared isn't an example of potentially limiting the top speed of a car to slow it down, it does appear as though it was to help tune those car to your track. The detuning, based on the comments, most likely made those entries easier to drive, and likely improved how they performed/finished at your track.

In the proxies I have been involved with in the past, the focus has been on the cars in their "as submitted" form. The builders/tuners submit their entries and each track host runs them effectively in this "as submitted" condition. No "tuning" is performed and the only variable each car typically sees is differing controller types and minor associated settings between drivers - all are run at the same voltage, are rotated through the same driver/lane/controller combinations, etc. The capabilities of the entries, good or bad, are what they are.
If a car is quick, but a handful to drive, the host drivers have to be more cautious driving that particular entry. Similarly, if the submitted entry is possibly a bit slower, but handles well, it may be easier for each of the drivers to run consistently and may ultimately result in that "slower" entry having a better showing than the quick, but hard to drive car.

With the ability to "adjust" individual cars varying amounts, would it be possible to take a car that has simply had it's tires changed and magnets removed, but no weight added, etc and tame it down so it is potentially capable of running side by side - or maybe even better than the car that has had weight added, etc. but is run at full settings? I'm not sure there is a readily available answer to that type of extreme scenerio, but considering how notable a difference dropping voltage can make in taming how a car drives, particularly on a tight technical track - it gets back to the question of "is spending the time tuning an entry a waste" if there is going to be potential additional "tuning" of individual cars done by a host?

While I didn't do a good job of really explaining this in the prior post (I guess I had the comments regarding "limiting winning cars", etc on my mind as I was writing) - hopefully I have done a better job of explaining why I felt this "adjusting/tuning" practice is discouraging to non-host participants in this reply.

Again, these are just my thoughts.
Thanks!
:)
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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby Czar » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:55 am

I understand your point Todd. Two points I would make. First: EVERYONE going into this proxy understood (or should have) that there were going to be lessons learned that could be applied to future proxies. This is one of those learning points. I agree with you, the cars should be run with the wishes of the owner respected in regards to tuning. I think the answer is (as has been stated) for the owner to include information about power and brake settings and those settings should be adhered to. Second: In only one instance were the cars adjusted by the track host. I don't think that had a significant affect on the outcome as there are so many other variables that were encountered, including the skill of the participating drivers, how fast deslotted cars were marshaled, errant lane changes that caused another car to crash, etc. But I do agree that each car should be raced with any configuration, allowed by rules, the owner wants. For instance, I asked that my tires only be cleaned with water and I hope that was respected.
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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby Czar » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:07 am

dw5555 wrote:
Czar wrote:Thinking more about a single platform, let's race Slot.it cars with the oXigen chip. That way it would be open for Scaley track owners and/or Carrera track owners to host also. In addition, the performance of Slot.it cars is a step above most of the others.


I don't think this is a good idea. Now you're talking about adding a different chip that hardly anyone has.

Dave


Everyone has access to the chip through mail order sales. Is there anyone who doesn't use mail order to get what they want if it is not available locally?

But the real reason for this suggestion is to break the barriers presented by proprietary technology. I also like the idea of racing on different tracks. Just like real racing, Scaley track is very different in size and surface texture form Carrera track. Daytona is very different is size and surface texture from Sebring. I think a very big barrier to the wider acceptance of digital racing is the fact that you can only use one system on one track brand. One of the most consistent complaints about digital, compared to to analog is not being able to buy a car from whatever manufacturer and put on the track and drive, like you can with analog cars.
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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby BARC 1 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:39 am

When the new decoder becomes available, I think this is a grand idea. It would be one way for the consumers to give back to a manufacturer that has delivered something we have all been moaning about.

You got to think Slot-it might want to be involved in a proxy like this in one way or another.

A couple of issues would need to be considered as the chips will require custom fitting so the cars won't be stock anymore.

I am not sure what this new chip has for lighting options or plugs. I am not sure this new chip is a plug and play thing, so it could require some soldering skills and the install might be intimidating to some.

Again I will bring up the inclusion of scratch builds. With all the variables of digital racing as discussed I am not sure what a scratchbuilt entry is bringing to the game other then satisfaction to its builder. There seems to be so much more going on in proxy racing,and even in analog the fastest chassis does not mean it is going to win. Again just my opinion, and topic for this discussion.

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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby dw5555 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:09 am

Todd,
A couple of things come to mind with regard to power settings. One host may be using a 1/32 Ps, another using 1/24 Ps and another using an adjustable Ps. Getting consistent voltages across the board will be difficult at best. Also the digital accessories like higher voltages to perform at their best. I run my track at 17v to make sure any lazy lane changers work properly however most of the cars are set to run at 30% power. As also pointed out a technical track won't require the speed hence lower power settings where a larger track likes the power to stretch out. In my opinion this is why it should be left up to the host to set power to his particular track as long as it's the same for all cars.

Dave

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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby kidvoltage » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:51 am

I concur. Power should be up to the track host, he knows the needs as well as the abilities of his crew. It should be up to the series host to design it so that we don't move into the stupid speed range. I imagine the cars will suffer a little more contact then your average analog series but there are speeds at which cars basically disintegrate. So just how fast do you need to go on a track full of cars?
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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby Burrell » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:26 am

BARC 1 wrote:You got to think Slot-it might want to be involved in a proxy like this in one way or another.


If anybody has any pull to get a manufacturer involved, I'm all for it. I'm not talking prizes or anything, but just support and/or encouragement. I was kind of surprised that neither Dave nor Slottus even acknowledged the first every proxy to use Carrera digital (at least to my knowledge).

I also like that we allowed hosts to determine how to run the proxy at their tracks, especially because of all the digital variables. As long as all cars were treated fairly then I say we keep this.
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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby kidvoltage » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:00 pm

I was able to get support/prizes/swag from Dave K. for the first Carrera Scramble. All I had to do was ask.
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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby lancelotalove » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:06 pm

I have not seen or heard about this new slot it chip. The scalextric digital LED is on the center of the slot and from what i see the Carrera LED is off center (Carrera is 12-13mm or 1/2 inch off center).
Does this new slot it chip have 2 LEDs (1 on center and 1 off center) and will it run both scaly and Carrera protocals? From what i read couple of years ago, they are very different protocals.
The slot it chips are capable of controlling stronger faster motors (slot it orange, yellow and other makers motors) than the scaly chip. This might be another variable in the mix.

I think all cars should be controlled with stock Carrera chip old style or new style.
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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby dw5555 » Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:51 pm

http://www.slotcarillustrated.com/porta ... hp?t=96658

The only issue would be cost which people are guessing in the $50 range. Not out of line for people that run on both types of track so the real question is how many people do you know have different brand of tracks. Only tracks around here are Carrera so it has no use for me personally.

Dave
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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby R/TRandy » Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:47 pm

Todd,
Changing the brake/speed setting at the CU or BB is really no different than changing the settings on a analog controller. Carrera D132 controllers don't have any adjustments on them. When I used to race analog 20 or so years ago my controllers all had pot's for variable braking, sensitivity and if I remember correctly a way to limit full throttle sweep.
In the analog proxies they only use controllers that are all the same and all the settings on them are the exactly the same?
If a fellow racer runs in the proxy and has a controller he can't use it or set it for his driving style?

Czar wrote: This is one of those learning points. I agree with you, the cars should be run with the wishes of the owner respected in regards to tuning. I think the answer is (as has been stated) for the owner to include information about power and brake settings and those settings should be adhered to. .

This sounds like a great idea, but in practice I don't think it works. A rule to not change speed would work and you would just run it that way and make it work the best you could. But brakes are a whole different area and is a driver style change. But if this is to be a rule than I will go with that also. As an example to this I race all my cars with as little brake as possible at a setting of 1 or 2 on the CU. No one else in my group runs this way and they run at 5 or 6. You set your car up and a setting of 4 works for you and then you would like everyone to run your car at that setting. So they do and change they way they drive for your car. Cars at their home track, driven by their owner would be the only cars run to their full potential.

As dw5555 has already mentioned there are varying types of power supply being used. Some are running stock D132 supplies and some are running aftermarket supplies. I run an a aftermarket supply set to 15Volts. So if an analog racer set his car up at 12volts, its not the same as on my track. In fact how would an analog racer know what settings he has his car set too and what settings to recommend.

And finally, I thought the first proxy was to work out the rules, see what worked and what didn't.
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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby TuscoTodd » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:13 pm

Randy,
On the analog racing / proxies I have been involved with, there are no methods I know of to limit overall max voltage via an individual controller (other than to limit how aggressive you are with your trigger finger). There "may" be some more exotic controllers out there that have that feature, but the normal Professor Motor, Parma, Difalco, OMNI, etc controllers that are typically used in the normal racing I have been involved with have the same simply pots to adjust throttle and brake sensitivity that you mentioned. However, if a limit in voltage is needed, the only way to apply that is via turning down the voltage at the power supply, which effects all cars equally.

As far as the various driver controller settings - each car is raced by the same driver/controller combos as the cars rotate through the lanes. The controllers used by each driver are, as you noted, set up based on a particular driver's driving style. They are not set to the characteristics of the particular car being run.
However, if I understand the comments, the tuning of the chips on each car is being compared to the individual controller settings of differing driver controllers - so maybe I misunderstood how these settings are done?
Does this mean that the chip settings are changed as the cars rotate from driver to driver to tailor each to the individual driver's style of driving, similar to the varying controller settings of analog?
In other words, as an example, if driver one would set the chip at 80% power, 50% brake, to match his driving style, when the car rotates to driver two, is that driver then able to readjust the settings to best match his driving style which might be say 90% power, 100% brake for his run - with each subsequent driver potentially changing those settings to their driving style through the entire rotation? If so, then I completely misunderstood how these adjustments are being made and agree that those chip settings are somewhat similar (at least on the braking side) to the adjustment of a controller's pot to match a driver's driving style.
However, if the chip is set to a specific setting at the beginning of the race and is not changed as it rotates from driver to driver to tailor to the individual driving styles - I don't see how this equivalent?

I have driven cars in proxies that were overpowered/poorly balanced/ill handling etc. And what is typically found (and I think it has been echoed a number of times through the various posts) is that if you lower the voltage available, a car that was a handful can become much easier to drive. However, the original point I was trying to make was that any changes should be applied equally to all cars - not varied on a car by car basis. If car 1 is a handful and limiting it's power to 80% calms it down and improves it's handling, in my mind, that same limit should be applied equally to all the cars - as car 2 may be "ok" handling at 100% but if it is lowered to the same 80% - it may make it handle "great"! From the tuner/builder standpoint - this keeps things on an level playing field for all entries and allows the builders / tuners to see how well they did in setting up their entry for the particular venue.

Dave -
In regard to the comments about hosts limiting voltage based on their track layout, power supply - I never meant to allude to that not being appropriate. If a host feels the overall voltage is too high, I agree completely that they should limit the chip settings to something appropriate. Again, my thoughts are that those limits should be applied universally to the entire field. If it is determined that power should be limited to say 30% power - all cars should be limited to same 30%. Not some at 20%, some at 30% and some at 40% - based on how well each is able to use the available power.

Hopefully the above comments made sense.
Please note - I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers with these comments - just trying to understand and help to generate thoughts regarding the next digital proxy.
Thanks!
:)
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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby R/TRandy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:38 am

TuscoTodd wrote:
However, if I understand the comments, the tuning of the chips on each car is being compared to the individual controller settings of differing driver controllers - so maybe I misunderstood how these settings are done?
Does this mean that the chip settings are changed as the cars rotate from driver to driver to tailor each to the individual driver's style of driving, similar to the varying controller settings of analog?
:)

AT the race held on my track, time was allotted each driver to run all the cars to get a feel for driving them. Also at this time they recorded their comment's, if any, on what they wanted to remember about each car. They also recorded their preferred setting for each car. I made a sheet up for them with each car listed on it to make this easier for them. And yes before each car was raced it was set to their likening as they had recorded earlier in the day. I have a separate CU and controllers set up on a cart for just this use.
As for any ruffle feathers from your comments I will not comment on that.
Randy
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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby TuscoTodd » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:41 am

Randy -
Thank you very much for the clarification.
With only one set of chip values being shared and no comments regarding how other drivers may have further adjusted those power settings (plus the comments by others about: dialing back winning cars, etc) - I hope you can see how I ended up with the impression I did.
So again, thank you for taking the time to clarify this.
Have a good week!
Todd
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Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby BARC 1 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:12 am

Good idea on the dedicated programming CU.

Interesting comments are being made. I myself have flipped my opinion a couple of times, after reading more thoughts on this from others

I think I am leaning to drivers setting up the cars to their liking. Digital allows for this, so why not utilize it including setting the voltage. Digital allows for each car to run at its own voltage setting and this setting does not affect the others. As a builder I want my car to be the fastest and smoothest, but I depend on drivers to get the most out of it on the track it is being run on. Only they know what works best for them.

Let's be honest about entering a proxy. Forget the idea that a proxy is the best way to determine the best car. This will even be more the case in digital. Entering a car is about having fun.

Once again I will go back to the inclusion of a scratchbuilt car. With all the other variables that will affect the outcome of a race in digital, does anyone really think a scratchbuilt will run away from the others? For me part of the fun is building a car to enter. Take that away and by default, I am less interested. Obviously this is my opinion and my perception of what I find enjoyable about proxies. I will use my experience as an example. I am primarily a 143 scale guy who scratch builds cars. This scale does not promote proxy racing. So to enjoy proxy racing To its fullest I had to combine 132 into my interests. So it stands to reason that for me to enjoy digital proxy racing, one component of the experience would be the satisfaction of watching a unique creation compete. Take that away, and you take away some of the desire to participate, especially knowing that the stock car I am entering is going to have the heck tuned out of it. So if I can't scratchbuilt, and my tuned stock car is going to be "personalized" by each unique driver, then really what is the point of sending in a car? Instead I could just ask each track host to run a car from his inventory in my name. The satisfaction of being involved would be about the same.

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