Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

For Those Doing It Digital Style!

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby Czar » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:45 pm

Is there any definitive information about how much one click on the power or brakes changes the performance of a car? i.e. 10%, 8%, etc. Is this verifiable and consistent across all control units? Motors, though given the same specs have a wide variation in performance since they are just toys. Would the same apply to the control units? Maybe dial back 1 "click" each time a car wins a race and give back one "click" when a "weighted" car finishes out the the top five? A BOP for model cars?
User avatar
Czar
HRW SlotCar Veteran!
 
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:05 pm
Location: Paris of the south

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby kidvoltage » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:52 pm

Since the goal of a proxy is to build a really good car it seems more fair to not be penalized when you do?

This makes the Carrera DTM's a really good choice. Plenty of choices and they are all pretty equal.
Last edited by kidvoltage on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
kidvoltage
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 10:01 am
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby BARC 1 » Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:13 pm

The thing is we are not building the cars, just fine tuning and running stock with the intent to have a level playing field. Trouble is a really good car like the C7 is just better then the rest.

The variable voltage range of the Carrera Digital chip is about 10-13.8 volts over the span, 1 being 10 volts, 10 being 13.8 volts

Did anyone check to see what setting the cars were at before racing??

Cheers


Dan
Cheers
Image
User avatar
BARC 1
HRW SlotCar Veteran!
 
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:03 pm
Location: Grande Prairie Alberta

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby Czar » Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:46 pm

Good point, Dan. I did not check the cars prior to the race. I think you make a good point, Kid. The DTM's seem to be close, but so are the classics with their skinny tires. For the next digital proxy that I run, I definitely do not want to limit the field to only Carrera cars, now that we have cross-platform chips. I have no problem putting a limit on motor RPM, or some other equalization tactic. Since we are trying to level the field, maybe a form of bracket qualifying could be used. It should also be noted that allowing more power to a slower car may not be an advantage, just as taking away power from a fast car may not be a disadvantage. I would much rather drive a car that handles well because it's lower speed makes it less likely to deslot. I have seen many races won by a car that was slower on the straight but handled better through the turns. A faster car may end up handling even better with a little less power. I am not trying to be discouraging, just considering all the angles.

(BTW, kidvoltage, you asked if you could participate in the next event, the answer is an emphatic yes, please do. The issue of prizes is a long way off. No one entered this past WDP because of the prize list since there wasn't any. Harry's gift was a complete surprise.)
User avatar
Czar
HRW SlotCar Veteran!
 
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:05 pm
Location: Paris of the south

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby TuscoTodd » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:50 pm

I find all of this interesting being an "analog guy" that jumped in on this proxy. I have some thoughts, I thought I would share having been involved with a number of proxies, that may/may not be beneficial to the thread. Feel free to take them with a grain of salt... :)

Single brand verses multi-brand...
In the proxies I have participated in and/or hosted, I have found the best racing / most fun has been when there are a fair number of defined restrictions on the entries (one brand, one class, one motor option, and even in some cases a single model like the Maverick, IROC Porsche, Kafer VW, etc proxies). When the rules are fairly open, there tends to be a wide disparity in performance with experience and in some instances $ dominating the top of the field and those newer to the hobby and/or newer to proxy racing typically getting relegated to the bottom of the field.
For some newcomers, this isn't an issue and is taken as a "learning" experience - but for some, it is found to be very discouraging to be nowhere near being in the hunt and it results in them being "turned off" to the idea of participating in future proxies.

Single format verses multi-format...
In considering multi-format in addition to multi-brand, keep in mind that it will add another large set of variables that will need to be considered, which with the teething issues this first proxy had, could prove to be another "challenging" experience. As a suggestion, and way to expand to other formats, but limit some of the variables, maybe consider a single brand / class of car (Scalextric vintage TransAm as an example) - but with Carson, etc type chips to allow the proxy to run on multiple software formats?
Again, just a thought...


Finally, one of the things that I didn't really understand, and again this is due to my ignorance of digital and this may be "the norm", but was the fact that track owners would be setting power and brake settings differently for different cars.
From my standpoint, as a builder/tuner, I found this information to be very discouraging. I spent a LOT of time on aligning bushings, breaking in the drive line, truing tires, etc trying to eliminate every bit of rolling resistance possible on my car, with the goal being to make it perform at it's peek and hopefully better than those being tuned by others. ;)
In reading the posts in this thread and those associated with the series (unless I misunderstood something) it sounds as though all my effort was really a waste though if the host track, at their discretion, could limit any particular entry's braking/top speed limits to an arbitrary level they felt was appropriate to make the field "more equal".
I'll chalk it up to something learned on my end. But I will say, had I know that was going to be the case, I wouldn't have spent the hours on my entry that I did and to be honest, would have refrained from entering this proxy - as it doesn't make a lot of sense on my end to try to tune a better car, pay to enter it and then have those efforts erased on an arbitrary basis. (especially when the variables that can come into play in digital racing are also applied)
Again, doing this type of arbitrary limiting of individual cars may be the "norm" for digital racing and if it is, I'm sorry, but it would seems to discourage "tuning/building a better car" and/or participation by non-hosts?

Again, please take my comments with a grain of salt - as they are just my observations. If they help in the discussions of next digital proxy - great! If not, no issue!
As I had stated in the other thread, it was great to be part of this as it developed and progressed to completion. It provided an interesting look into a format of racing I had never been exposed to, and as a result, I hope to have an opportunity try first hand in the future! :D
:text-thankyouyellow:
User avatar
TuscoTodd
HRW Bouncer
 
Posts: 6345
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:25 am
Location: Rural Ohio

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby BARC 1 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 12:51 am

Good observations. I think the track hosts could tune the car to get the most out of it, but how much of this was done? That is why I suggested in the next digital proxy all the "tuning" information on each car should be shared. In digital racing the fine tuning is done onboard the car. In analog the tuning is done on the controller. So unless all analog proxies are run using old Parmas there may in fact be a bunch of "tuning" going on in analog as well.

I do hear what you are saying though. Why bother sending a car in the mail, just tell the track host to pick a car and put your name on it, much like the fantasy proxy being run. So we have to be careful how much de-tuning we do in the name of a level playing field. Maybe next time the builder sets the chip parameters and the driver just drives what they are given.

So I think the goal is to give entrants the chance to tune their cars to the best of their ability, that is the point of it after all. However when it is discovered that a particular brand and model of a car is superior, then some discussion takes place on what to do about. Ie in this last proxy perhaps the Corvettes could have raced their own race, and allowed the other cars to battle it out in a different class. End up with two races going on the same track at the same time. This concept isn't new in the racing world :D

Cheers

Dan
Last edited by BARC 1 on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers
Image
User avatar
BARC 1
HRW SlotCar Veteran!
 
Posts: 1386
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:03 pm
Location: Grande Prairie Alberta

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby kidvoltage » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:18 am

I agree with Dan. There are a number of proxies that offer multiple classes. I have no issue with running them all together. There will always be slower and faster cars. In digital it just adds flavor to the mix. I do however favor the idea of a single-maker proxy only because it's quite possible to get some manner of manufacturer support that would be less likely with a multi-brand series. Nothing wrong with raising your profile. But that's just my opinion and you're welcome to differ.
User avatar
kidvoltage
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 10:01 am
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby Burrell » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:08 am

These are all excellent points. Why penalize somebody who did a good job just for the sake of parity? Maybe with all the different factors in digital racing that can affect outcome (pit stops, ghost cars, etc.), we keep the cars as close to equal as possible. So maybe we should go with DTMs. There are certainly more than enough liveries to choose from.
Burrell
HRW SlotCar Veteran!
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 1:03 pm

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby Czar » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:21 pm

kidvoltage wrote:... I do however favor the idea of a single-maker proxy only because it's quite possible to get some manner of manufacturer support that would be less likely with a multi-brand series.


I just went back and looked through the postings for the first Worldwide Digital Proxy (all 23 pages of chatter) and there was not a single post from anyone affiliated with Carrera - not even an acknowledgement the race was happening with Carrera products.
User avatar
Czar
HRW SlotCar Veteran!
 
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:05 pm
Location: Paris of the south

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby dw5555 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:01 pm

TuscoTodd wrote:Finally, one of the things that I didn't really understand, and again this is due to my ignorance of digital and this may be "the norm", but was the fact that track owners would be setting power and brake settings differently for different cars.
From my standpoint, as a builder/tuner, I found this information to be very discouraging. I spent a LOT of time on aligning bushings, breaking in the drive line, truing tires, etc trying to eliminate every bit of rolling resistance possible on my car, with the goal being to make it perform at it's peek and hopefully better than those being tuned by others. ;)
In reading the posts in this thread and those associated with the series (unless I misunderstood something) it sounds as though all my effort was really a waste though if the host track, at their discretion, could limit any particular entry's braking/top speed limits to an arbitrary level they felt was appropriate to make the field "more equal".
I'll chalk it up to something learned on my end. But I will say, had I know that was going to be the case, I wouldn't have spent the hours on my entry that I did and to be honest, would have refrained from entering this proxy - as it doesn't make a lot of sense on my end to try to tune a better car, pay to enter it and then have those efforts erased on an arbitrary basis. (especially when the variables that can come into play in digital racing are also applied)
Again, doing this type of arbitrary limiting of individual cars may be the "norm" for digital racing and if it is, I'm sorry, but it would seems to discourage "tuning/building a better car" and/or participation by non-hosts?


This is actually a valid point. I would think that the voltage should be set the same for all cars by the host for his particular track and the only adjustability should be the brakes. This was my understanding when this proxy was 1st started. I didn't realize that the cars were individually tuned (speed & brakes) to the driver.

Dave
Enjoy who you race with, not how you should be racing.
User avatar
dw5555
HRW SlotCar Veteran!
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 2:12 pm
Location: Saginaw MI

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby Czar » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:41 pm

While it was talked about, in practice, it didn't work so well. I think all the track hosts did set the power the same for all cars. I know that is what happened at my track, Buspor's track, and Burrell's track.
User avatar
Czar
HRW SlotCar Veteran!
 
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:05 pm
Location: Paris of the south

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby Czar » Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:44 pm

Thinking more about a single platform, let's race Slot.it cars with the oXigen chip. That way it would be open for Scaley track owners and/or Carrera track owners to host also. In addition, the performance of Slot.it cars is a step above most of the others.
User avatar
Czar
HRW SlotCar Veteran!
 
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:05 pm
Location: Paris of the south

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby R/TRandy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:25 pm

Czar wrote:While it was talked about, in practice, it didn't work so well. I think all the track hosts did set the power the same for all cars. I know that is what happened at my track, Buspor's track, and Burrell's track.

I was the only track host to change power settings, so I am the guilty party.
The power settings were not changed to "level the playing field", they were done to make the cars more drivable.
All cars were set back to max speed before they were shipped to the next track.

4 cars had their power settings lower, one of which was mine and another one was another guy from our group.

RTRandy Ferrari 458, A little loose, tail gets out easy, smooth runner, I set the speed down to 9

Lancelotalove Corvette CR6, This car is super fast, but hard keep all that power controlled in the corners. Speed was set down to 8
TPRgmwrench BMW Z4, fast car ,a little loose, tail swings out easy, speed was down to 9

Mr Flippant Aston Martin Vantage, this is a fast car, but loose and seems a little top heavy. For most was hard to drive fast lap after lap. speed was set down to 9

Lance's car with the speed set down was still the fastest down the front straight! this car was a hand-full in the corners at max. Lance's car on my track could pull itself right out of the slot on full throttle blasts. There's is no doubt that this car would have placed much lower than 3rd at max setting.

As for setting the brakes to a common setting, I don't think that is a good idea. Basically forcing drivers to race differently than they normally would.
Looking at the chart from the race on my track. Look at the laps each of the 4 drivers completed with your cars, you can see which cars were hard to drive and which were not. These cars of coarse had the most laps, but also were the cars that all 4 drivers had the most laps with.
Image
User avatar
R/TRandy
HRW SlotCar Veteran!
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:52 am
Location: Kaukauna WI

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby R/TRandy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:37 pm

dw5555 wrote:
TuscoTodd wrote:Finally, one of the things that I didn't really understand, and again this is due to my ignorance of digital and this may be "the norm", but was the fact that track owners would be setting power and brake settings differently for different cars.
From my standpoint, as a builder/tuner, I found this information to be very discouraging. I spent a LOT of time on aligning bushings, breaking in the drive line, truing tires, etc trying to eliminate every bit of rolling resistance possible on my car, with the goal being to make it perform at it's peek and hopefully better than those being tuned by others. ;)
In reading the posts in this thread and those associated with the series (unless I misunderstood something) it sounds as though all my effort was really a waste though if the host track, at their discretion, could limit any particular entry's braking/top speed limits to an arbitrary level they felt was appropriate to make the field "more equal".
I'll chalk it up to something learned on my end. But I will say, had I know that was going to be the case, I wouldn't have spent the hours on my entry that I did and to be honest, would have refrained from entering this proxy - as it doesn't make a lot of sense on my end to try to tune a better car, pay to enter it and then have those efforts erased on an arbitrary basis. (especially when the variables that can come into play in digital racing are also applied)
Again, doing this type of arbitrary limiting of individual cars may be the "norm" for digital racing and if it is, I'm sorry, but it would seems to discourage "tuning/building a better car" and/or participation by non-hosts?


This is actually a valid point. I would think that the voltage should be set the same for all cars by the host for his particular track and the only adjustability should be the brakes. This was my understanding when this proxy was 1st started. I didn't realize that the cars were individually tuned (speed & brakes) to the driver.

Dave

Sorry TuscoTodd no arbitrary limiting was done to your car.
Randy
User avatar
R/TRandy
HRW SlotCar Veteran!
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:52 am
Location: Kaukauna WI

Re: Future Digital Proxies - Ideas & Feedback

Postby dw5555 » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:57 pm

Czar wrote:Thinking more about a single platform, let's race Slot.it cars with the oXigen chip. That way it would be open for Scaley track owners and/or Carrera track owners to host also. In addition, the performance of Slot.it cars is a step above most of the others.


I don't think this is a good idea. Now you're talking about adding a different chip that hardly anyone has.

Dave
Enjoy who you race with, not how you should be racing.
User avatar
dw5555
HRW SlotCar Veteran!
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 2:12 pm
Location: Saginaw MI

PreviousNext

Return to Digital Racing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest